Curse

The Drunkard · Nov 24, 2009, 08:41 PM // 20:41

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Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

The fact remain, no one has a good logical reason as to why SF is bad. non!

Now hold on everyone! pumpkin does have a point here, no reason to why nerfing shadow form is logical. However, you post is a bit vague on what context you are using logical in. Would you care to post what logical means to you, and why none of the posters seem to follow it? Thanks

w00t! · Nov 24, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Now hold on everyone! pumpkin does have a point here, no reason to why nerfing shadow form is logical. However, you post is a bit vague on what context you are using logical in. Would you care to post what logical means to you, and why none of the posters seem to follow it? Thanks

Let's fall back on the basis for our society: The Reasonable Person Standard. Does anyone here reasonably believe that any of the Elite areas were designed so that they could be beaten in 15 minutes or less?

If your answer is no, then it's reasonable to assume that Anet will continue to balance the game when combination of skills synergize in ways that Anet did not consider, such that FoW, UW, DoA are not longer Elite.

Finally since you're being logical, me ask you this: Given Anet's history of balancing skills when they feel necessary, why would you consider Shadow Form to be immune?

coil · Nov 24, 2009, 10:03 PM // 22:03

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Originally Posted by Ugh

I never said that I couldn't. Go back, read my post, and read what I'm responding to.

yeah bro i did.

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Gimmicky sins disgust me. I would never wish for my beloved ranger to be degraded to their level.

but i was also generalizing the response to alot of others who cry about it.

basically, now, youre saying you want tanking skills killed and areas made easier. gg you got me there. but "elite" areas are supposed to be "hard" and stacked "against" you..inherently unbalanced...right?

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Skills that target through SF are fairly rare

then anet is at fault for not making them more prominent. obviously they have counters for their own skill. why they dont "balance" the areas i dunno.

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My mesmer can do Mobway, SoOSC, and FoWSC?

yeah just don't hex when an illusionist is up.

back to clearing dhuum gl

reaper with no name · Nov 24, 2009, 10:07 PM // 22:07

So, you're saying anet should redo the skills for most of the areas of the game (with who knows what unforseen negative effects), just to balance SF without changing the skill?

Why not, oh I don't know, nerf it directly? Seems a lot easier and more direct to me.

The Drunkard · Nov 24, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

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Originally Posted by coil

stuff

I'm going to steal MithranArkanere's post from another thread since he makes a very good comment.

Oh btw, I use and exploit SF to make ez monies as well...that doesn't mean that I don't think it should be changed

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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Farmers are not playing the game as intended, and they get more cash, and they usually also trade more, and use external sites to trade and auction.

That makes farming the main source of a high-end microeconomy, that too often forces elevated prices for some items.
That frustrates average players, that see how will be impossible to get something from other players as fast as they do, and some even think that the only way to acquire such things is also doing what those farmers do.

But the thing is that excessive farming must be PREVENTED, not halted after having it working for years.
Otherwise many players will feel like that excessive farming is part of the game they paid for, even if it's not, and when you remove that, they'll feel as if they were cut from part of the game, even if that part was never meant to be.

If GW had a real ingame trade system and this kind of excessive farmings were cut as soon as possible, nothing of this would have happened.

What to do when things get to this? Explain the failure, apologize and bring the big skillchanger hammer, not the small one. And after that change, try to keep a good pace and not leave excessive farmings working for too long again.

And of course learn for future games.

squiros · Nov 25, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

sf doesn't actually raise prices for the average player. since the average player will see that sf is a good money making method, they'll also make one. if all players have an sf sin making them money, then the economy will equilibriate to the average player. if the average player does not have sf, then sf isn't that big a problem in the first place.

if farming is that deep of a concern, simply nerf the drop of SF. for example, people who have sf active will have their drops reduced to 30%.

sf is godmode and godmode is broken. both assertions actually have no effect on other players except the farming element. the cheat code analogy is irrelevant. what if there was a cheat codes that limited the total damage a single player could take to 10% for 5 min? but enemies had a 'deactivate cheat code' skill they could use to remove it? then the game would still be exactly the same as it is - the cheat code idea could be applied to any skill in the game. furthermore, farm related skills could be nerfed to prevent all of farming - sliver armor, soj, radiation field, etc.

game intention is irrelevant. the evolution of classes and their intended use from prophecies has wandered quite a ways off - to the benefit of the community. the best protters are eles or gons, not monks. the best healers are n/rt. people used to need damage absorbers (warriors). this is part of the game's evolution - the original intention is irrelevant as new builds are introduced.

sf is mindless. possibly - but less so than say the game bejewelled or tic tac toe. yet those games have stood the test of time far longer than gw - simplicity is not a testament of necessary change. it is, like many things, a mere preference.

as such, leave us alone. the high school population flipping burgers of course want to prove themselves with a well thought out build in a video game since they have nothing but time. the older fan base simply wants a game to be fun with a possibility to be innovative, not for it to be forced upon us. kids of course have to cry for balance to legitimize their epeen. the rest of us are too busy building a real life to want to deal with drastic changes - especially for just a hobby.

Cuilan · Nov 25, 2009, 05:59 AM // 05:59

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Originally Posted by Reformed

You should have at least a handful of other characters as options to re-roll with, ideally something in the holy trinity, if you are serious about doing high end content.

No I shouldn't. And here above is an example of someone telling me what profession to run.

QueenofDeath · Nov 25, 2009, 11:32 AM // 11:32

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Originally Posted by Kotetsu Rain

I for one think everyone would stop QQing if there was God Mode for every profession. <.<

Hell no as I want challenge I just don't want some noob being able to get to the good stuff by gimmick builds that's all. Learn how to play as I did. Become skilled as I did. Put all the time and effort into the game as I have (over 5000 hours thank you very much) and then you can deserve some of the good stuff in the game.

)

w00t! · Nov 26, 2009, 12:52 AM // 00:52

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Originally Posted by squiros

sf doesn't actually raise prices

Who cares? There are numerous ways to farm money in GW, the argument for/against SF does not hinge on economics.

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Originally Posted by squiros

sf is godmode and godmode is broken. both assertions actually have no effect on other players except the farming element.

Completely wrong. The discussion about SF specifically revolves around this. I find it interesting that you fail to notice this throughout the 180 odd posts in this thread, and the numerous other threads here.

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Originally Posted by squiros

game intention is irrelevant. the evolution of classes and their intended use from prophecies has wandered quite a ways off

Wrong again. You make the analogy to classes, but the proper analogy should be to the actual gameplay itself. Can you reasonably argue that the game developers designed Elite areas such that they could be beaten in 15 minutes or less? And has Anet ever balanced skills to the betterment of the game?

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Originally Posted by squiros

sf is mindless. possibly - but less so than say the game bejewelled or tic tac toe.

Wow, wonderful analogy. So it's okay to murder because others do? Ethics 101 my son.

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Originally Posted by squiros

as such, leave us alone.

I could care less what you do in GW, and how much money you make, and what neat items you can ping when you PUG. What I do care about is my ability to enjoy the game. And when certain skills are imbalanced such that everyone is "forced" into specific builds to play specific Elite areas, then I believe that these skills should be balanced, as Anet has done previously.

Tell you what, how about we give you the ability to simply type /rich over and over. That's about as difficult as running a SF build, and right up there with your bejeweled analogy.

FyrFytr998 · Nov 26, 2009, 03:00 AM // 03:00

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Originally Posted by w00t!

I could care less what you do in GW, and how much money you make, and what neat items you can ping when you PUG. What I do care about is my ability to enjoy the game. And when certain skills are imbalanced such that everyone is "forced" into specific builds to play specific Elite areas, then I believe that these skills should be balanced, as Anet has done previously.

Tell you what, how about we give you the ability to simply type /rich over and over. That's about as difficult as running a SF build, and right up there with your bejeweled analogy.

ANET could just as easily give people the ability to have an all hero team for all you "balance" aficionados as well. This way you could run your own team and builds. That way everyone can play the game how they want it. All this could be avoided if ANET did a better job at testing skills before releasing them. I mean it's their job after all. Why is it that these people supposedly test extensively for weeks, months, or years to put out skills that are supposed to be balanced. But it takes a matter of hours to days for a broken build to be developed?

Keep SF for the real farmers.
Step up effort to catch criminal activity that takes from ANET.
Give PvE'ers 7 heroes so they can H/H without handicap.

Do that and I bet all the QQ'ers would go away.

Star Gazer · Nov 26, 2009, 04:10 AM // 04:10

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Originally Posted by w00t!

And when certain skills are imbalanced such that everyone is "forced" into specific builds to play specific Elite areas, then I believe that these skills should be balanced, as Anet has done previously.

this part of the post was actually a bit funny. has there EVER been any situation in a PuG, or hell, even a guild setting doing HM content, Elite areas, or any form of PvP? are you saying that you want to run whatever build you want to clear an area? You might as well be saying 'OH MY GOD, PVP IS TOO RETURDEDED, I CANT USE MY OWN BUILD PEOPLE DONT UNDERSTAND MY BUILD QQ/RAGE". I mean seriously. Any where you go, anything you do (unless your with your sabway or discordway heros which I am almost positive you abuse the hell out of) people will REQUIRE you to use builds that are most effective in that area. Your trying to swing your epeen, and noone gives a damn. Balance in a game with over 1000+ skills and tons of profession combinations to choose from, what your asking is impossible. Let people play the way they want, instead of acting like a <13 year old.

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Originally Posted by Queen of Death

Hell no as I want challenge I just don't want some noob being able to get to the good stuff by gimmick builds that's all. Learn how to play as I did. Become skilled as I did. Put all the time and effort into the game as I have (over 5000 hours thank you very much) and then you can deserve some of the good stuff in the game. )

this, also, is funny. Someone who cant even use correct sentence structure actually thinks they are good at this game. You actually CARE about what people have in a game? That is sad and pathetic. Oh, and once you log over 8000+ hours on your account, you can actually respond.

Bryant Again · Nov 26, 2009, 05:16 AM // 05:16

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Originally Posted by Star Gazer

are you saying that you want to run whatever build you want to clear an area?

Definitely not. You completely missed the point.

upier · Nov 26, 2009, 08:08 AM // 08:08

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Originally Posted by reaper with no name

See the difference? Either way, X and Y can't both get in, but when there is balance, each one has their advantages and disadvantages, and you can make a decent argument for allowing either one into the party.

SH is a farming skill.
And in farming, looking for options that achieve a comparable effect never took place. You either used the SINGLE best option for the job or your farming efficiency went down the drain.

And when it comes to playing - the main criteria to be accepted into a party will be "shit-ton of damage". Either by preventing said shit-ton or by dealing it. And if you aren't doing this - then you don't have a PvE use.

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Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Also, balance is implicitly assumed as one of the mechanisms to ensure "fun" in any game. That's why games strive for balance. That doesn't mean that it's always true, but it is an assumption that all games have.

Actually if you look at some of the Dev Updates, you will see that A.Net explicitly mentioned "fun" as the reason to incorporate the most insanely unbalanced crap. Balance took a back seat to fun.
So to come here and argue that SF is bad BECAUSE it's not balanced is like saying that the colour blue is bad because it's blue.
Of course it's not balanced.
It's not supposed to be.

pumpkin pie · Nov 26, 2009, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Now hold on everyone! pumpkin does have a point here, no reason to why nerfing shadow form is logical. However, you post is a bit vague on what context you are using logical in. Would you care to post what logical means to you, and why none of the posters seem to follow it? Thanks

Read this post by Test Me, could not have said it any better myself.

QueenofDeath · Nov 26, 2009, 05:30 PM // 17:30

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Originally Posted by Star Gazer

this part of the post was actually a bit funny. has there EVER been any situation in a PuG, or hell, even a guild setting doing HM content, Elite areas, or any form of PvP? are you saying that you want to run whatever build you want to clear an area? You might as well be saying 'OH MY GOD, PVP IS TOO RETURDEDED, I CANT USE MY OWN BUILD PEOPLE DONT UNDERSTAND MY BUILD QQ/RAGE". I mean seriously. Any where you go, anything you do (unless your with your sabway or discordway heros which I am almost positive you abuse the hell out of) people will REQUIRE you to use builds that are most effective in that area. Your trying to swing your epeen, and noone gives a damn. Balance in a game with over 1000+ skills and tons of profession combinations to choose from, what your asking is impossible. Let people play the way they want, instead of acting like a <13 year old.

this, also, is funny. Someone who cant even use correct sentence structure actually thinks they are good at this game. You actually CARE about what people have in a game? That is sad and pathetic. Oh, and once you log over 8000+ hours on your account, you can actually respond.

And here ^ we have your typical forum troll. Who the fark cares about sentence structure Moe? This isn't jr. high here nor are you my mentor. I could definitely school you in the game though boy.

Ugh · Nov 26, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

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Originally Posted by Star Gazer

has there EVER been any situation in a PuG, or hell, even a guild setting doing HM content, Elite areas, or any form of PvP?

It's hard to respond when you forget to type out the other half of your question.

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are you saying that you want to run whatever build you want to clear an area? You might as well be saying 'OH MY GOD, PVP IS TOO RETURDEDED, I CANT USE MY OWN BUILD PEOPLE DONT UNDERSTAND MY BUILD QQ/RAGE". I mean seriously. Any where you go, anything you do (unless your with your sabway or discordway heros which I am almost positive you abuse the hell out of) people will REQUIRE you to use builds that are most effective in that area.

Of course your build should be designed to handle what is expected in a given area, but there shouldn't be ONE build for ONE profession that I have to have just to find a group.

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Your trying to swing your epeen, and noone gives a damn. Balance in a game with over 1000+ skills and tons of profession combinations to choose from, what your asking is impossible. Let people play the way they want, instead of acting like a <13 year old.

Throwing out random insults that don't actually apply to the post you're quoting, eh?

At the unbolded section: Surely we can do better than our current situation.

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this, also, is funny. Someone who cant even use correct sentence structure actually thinks they are good at this game.

How overwhelmingly ironic... By the way, mastery of a language doesn't have anything to do with GW playing ability.

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Oh, and once you log over 8000+ hours on your account, you can actually respond.

That seems like something you would keep to yourself...

reaper with no name · Nov 26, 2009, 07:15 PM // 19:15

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Originally Posted by upier

Actually if you look at some of the Dev Updates, you will see that A.Net explicitly mentioned "fun" as the reason to incorporate the most insanely unbalanced crap. Balance took a back seat to fun.
So to come here and argue that SF is bad BECAUSE it's not balanced is like saying that the colour blue is bad because it's blue.
Of course it's not balanced.
It's not supposed to be.

If lack of balance was fun, players would have been given access to BAMPH! After all, that skill is even more "fun" than SF.

Also, once again, if you really believe that SF is ok, then go to sardelac and suggest that all classes be given the ability to maintain it. If lack of balance is fun, and SF is more unbalanced than everything else, then it's not fair to the other professions, because they are denied the ability to have as much "fun" as the assassin.

Also, there is more than one type of balance. Skill balance is something that is impossible for this game. However, profession balance (which is what I'm talking about) is well within the realm of possibility. SF destroys all hope of that.

upier · Nov 26, 2009, 08:05 PM // 20:05

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Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If lack of balance was fun, players would have been given access to BAMPH! After all, that skill is even more "fun" than SF.

Also, once again, if you really believe that SF is ok, then go to sardelac and suggest that all classes be given the ability to maintain it. If lack of balance is fun, and SF is more unbalanced than everything else, then it's not fair to the other professions, because they are denied the ability to have as much "fun" as the assassin.

Also, there is more than one type of balance. Skill balance is something that is impossible for this game. However, profession balance (which is what I'm talking about) is well within the realm of possibility. SF destroys all hope of that.

The problem is that you are basing your demand for class balance on farming. And farming NEVER had even a hit of class balance.
It was ALWAYS just the single best option and nothing else.
And today, this is SF.

reaper with no name · Nov 26, 2009, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Actually, I'm basing it on standard play, where SF also happens to rule with an iron fist.

And if farming is all there is to the game, and SF is the best, then why are only assassins allowed to use it?

Even if you believe that SF's overpoweredness is not a problem, the skill itself is still a problem because only assassins have access to it's power. It's not just broken; it's also unfair.

The Drunkard · Nov 26, 2009, 08:56 PM // 20:56

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